So, I've been reading a lot about fire sword making, and I've looked at several designs being sold online. I settled on the idea of a wood sword as a base, covered in aluminum tape, and wrapped with wick. Seems like the easiest and lightest approach.
I bought a wood bokken and some hemlock dowel, planning to use the dowel for something else. When the dowel project didn't work out, I decided to wrap IT in aluminum tape and wick instead, since its regular shape would make that process much easier. The end result is a fire sword with a dowel as a base instead of a sword. I don't plan on striking anything with it.
What I'd like to know is if anything has experience with a fire sword like this. Did it last? Did it fail? Should I be worried about the strength of the dowel diminishing over time? I'd love to hear some feedback from some more experienced fire sword people.
There's a photo of the sword in my gallery, toward the end of the first or second burn. For my purposes I think it looks great. I'm more concerned with safety and longevity.
Thanks!
I bought a wood bokken and some hemlock dowel, planning to use the dowel for something else. When the dowel project didn't work out, I decided to wrap IT in aluminum tape and wick instead, since its regular shape would make that process much easier. The end result is a fire sword with a dowel as a base instead of a sword. I don't plan on striking anything with it.
What I'd like to know is if anything has experience with a fire sword like this. Did it last? Did it fail? Should I be worried about the strength of the dowel diminishing over time? I'd love to hear some feedback from some more experienced fire sword people.
There's a photo of the sword in my gallery, toward the end of the first or second burn. For my purposes I think it looks great. I'm more concerned with safety and longevity.
Thanks!
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 4:15 PMFirst, don't know much about hemlock other than it's a poisonous evergreen plant. Hence, burning wood form a poisonous plant may have some toxic effects? Aside from that, most dowels are made from a lighter type wood and therefore may break down faster than most hardwoods. As long as you're not doing contact and have it wrapped in aluminum tape, and the diameter of the rod is sufficiently large, you should be OK. Keep us posted on how it holds up.
I, myself, prefer the bokken (though I do full on contact combat and need the strength). Bokken's that are made of Asian red oak, Japanese white oak, or hickory have a tighter grain and therefore provide greater hardness and impact resistance. Plus, are relatively low in cost. We did several burn tests on them, and then took them apart to see how much damage was being done to the bokken inside. The result was minimal to no damage.
If you're worried, take yours apart after a few burns to see how it's holding up. Beats having it fall apart during a performance...
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 5:42 PMDiameter is an inch. Less would be spindly. More would be too much.
I chose dowel over bokken because the bokken's weight is just about at the limit of what I'm willing/able to work with. Then add wick and fuel on top of that? The dowel with two layers of wick is heavy enough for now.
Good point about taking it apart. After some more trials I may just do that.
Thanks for the thoughts!
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 12:35 AMOkay, first, where are you getting hemlock?
Our countach torches were originally made that way: www.bearclawmfg.com/catalog/...ts_id/147
We're using metal tubing now, but for reasons that have little to do with the dowel itself. The kevlar is probably better at protecting the wood than the aluminum tape is. The only place you'll really need protection is the 3-4" outside the wick coverage area where the wood could be exposed to flame.
Next is a warning about aluminum tapes. they're not all made the same. some brands, even expensive ones, have highly volatile glue. Muffler tape seems to be the only consistent type that does not. Test your tape before trying on the real tool.
Other than that, just make sure that the kevlar doesn't fray and expose the wood and you should be just fine. The dowel should only dry out. With an 1/8th inch of kevlar or more it shouldn't even start browning. -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 5:46 PMThe hemlock is from Home Depot. Bad idea? Is Scorch onto something?
Dang, I didn't check the tape. How do you test tape, anyway? I'll look for muffler tape for future projects, and for the revision of my current sword.
There's no exposed wood anywhere near the flame, so it sounds like I've done the right thing there.
And it's true--when I've looked under a section of wick, the covered area looked completely untouched. Either the wick looked unburnt or the tape was still shiny. That's reassuring. It really does mean the dowel itself is only being heated, and isn't burning.
Thanks for all your ideas! -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 9:47 PMHome Depot? Hunh. You sure that's not a brand name? either way, I wouldn't worry much about it. different part of plants often have very different properties. You'd be surprised at the differences between raspberries, raspberry leaves and their roots.
If it's already together, just keep an eye on it. you should be fine. Just keep the first few trials away from audiences until it's good an broken-in. Keep an eye on the tape and just remember that dropping the tool is an option if things go awry.
In the future, test your tape on any ol stick with cloth wrapped around the tape. Light it up with fuel and let it burn through. -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 12:59 AMI've known some people who made pipes out of exotic hardwoods and ended up really sick. I'll check with my brother on the hemlock wood- he's an enviromental toxicologist and chemist at UC Berkeley and get back to you.
Jaz and I did a lot of testing on our swords. After only one burn with a hardwood bokken without aluminum tape, we took it apart and there was definately fire damage. In the areas where the wood was scorched, the kevlar showed signs of damage from the smoldering wood. I would definately stick with wrapping any wood in aluminum tape!!! Aluminum has some of the best properties for relecting heat, so in this case the aluminum tape basically reflects the heat away from the wood. It's what NASA uses as insulation in their spaceshuttles. -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 2:56 AMAlthough I'm dubious about the relative amount of testing that's been done in this area, I'm the last person to casually wave safety suggestions aside.
The biggest differences between a dowel and a boken is the wax coating used to give it a glossy, harder surface. I'd be interested in seeing a similar test with a boken that had been sanded down to the bare wood.
The biggest difference between a pipe and a sword would be direction of airflow. naturally a pipe is going to focus any exotic residues into the smoke that would be inhaled, in full concentration, plus it has a 500 degree coal that often directly burns the wood. But, that aside, I checked and hemlock is a pretty common hardwood for use in lateral stability (like ladder rungs, or shear plugs). Now that still doesn't mean it's cool to be around in fires, so not a bad idea to either wait for medical advise, or be very careful your first few burns. Odd smells are usually a pretty good indicator, and certainly put the tool away if you get queasy. -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 4:19 PMuse quicky brand shovel handles and cut off the taper dont use any more than three wicks and use lots of aluminum tape
i have the sword we speak of with dowel rods....on my pics if that helps -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 4:43 PM3 wicks? Interesting approach. What did you use for a crossguard? -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 8:52 PMi used a bashed up swiffer handle...i have a tendency of making one persons moop my treasure....
itsss my ownnnn my precioussss! -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 8:54 PMohand lots and lots of aluminum tape to make the illusion of steel -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 11:23 PMAluminum tape(as in the duct tape for actual ducting, not the alumanized fabric crap) sometimes has flammable adhesive. If you want to use an aluminum for aesthetic or heat reflection, you can get regular tin foil, and then elmer's glue it to your rod and overlap it a few times. Elmer's glue is PVA, which when heated enough gives up its water and turns into a staggeringly strong black goo (mostly polymerized polyvynyl acetate). Just like with finishing any other wick's rough edge, you want to bring it to temp and leave it there for a while without stressing it much. That'll be a hand torch.
I haven't done this on a sword, so it might come off with some crazy moves, but it worked like a charm on my first staff (a big wooden dowel) -
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Fri, May 4, 2007 - 5:27 PMYup. the only aluminum tape I've found that predictably has nonflammable glue is muffler repair tape. Otherwise, you have to test each source.
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 4:31 PMSide note: Hemlock is an evergreen tree (leaves make a delicious tea). Poison hemlock is a plant that looks very much like a wild carrot or parsley, but whose roots have no carrot smell and are very poisonous. It's what Socrates had to take when he was sentenced to death.
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 5:14 PMHunh. I guess I should check Oxford more often:
hemlock |ˈhemˌläk| noun
1 a highly poisonous European plant of the parsley family, with a purple-spotted stem, fernlike leaves, small white flowers, and an unpleasant smell. • Conium maculatum, family Umbelliferae. • a sedative or poisonous potion obtained from this plant. Such a potion was said to have been used to poison Socrates.
2 (also hemlock fir or spruce) a coniferous North American tree with dark green foliage that is said to smell like hemlock when crushed, grown chiefly for timber and pulp production, and also grown in Europe as an ornamental. • Genus Tsuga, family Pinaceae: several species, in particular eastern hemlock ( T. canadensis) and Carolina hemlock ( T. caroliniana).
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Re: dowel sword: a question
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 9:07 PMSo, I've burned the sword about 10 times, pushed it through a lot of moves--swings, slashes, etc--and it has held up quite well. The weight isn't quite to my liking--not enough in the hilt to balance the wick and fuel--so I'll have to address that issue soon. I may take it apart soon to look for damage, but I have a feeling that the wick and tape have done their job.
Glad to hear about white glue--it confirms what I'd read/heard previously about using it to protect against fraying. In the future I'd actually like to use aluminum pipe instead of dowel, so at least I won't have to worry about using the wrong kind of aluminum tape.
Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions! Fire sword is a blast. -
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Hard learned lessons about aluminum pipe.
Mon, May 21, 2007 - 10:08 PMYou may already know this, but I thought I would throw it out just in case. If you're going to use a pipe for a base of a fire prop, I would suggest plugging one or both ends. I don't understand all of the physics behind it, but have learned from experiance of making several staffs. If the ends are not plugged, the pipe tends to heat up very quickly. If the ends have something to prevent airflow this trend diminishes greatly, and the pipe heats up slowly from conduction, as opposed to quickly from convection. I'm sure some on this tribe can give you a scientific explaination as opposed to my layman's experiance.
Odysseus -
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Re: Hard learned lessons about aluminum pipe.
Wed, May 23, 2007 - 11:49 AMit has to do with fire on the inside. When you move the pipe in a way that there is an airflow through the pipe, it basically becomes a very rudimentary pulsejet. You'll hear it with firestaff sometimes, it's this weird fwish or fwunk sound. I've (ONCE damnit) been able to through-light a staff. (Have one end on fire, swing it in such a way that fire goes down the center and ignites the other end. Looks damn magical). I don't know if a sword would do this, because you'd NEVER do any motions where you are leading the open-end towards air (creating a flow through the tube), unless you've got a lot of stuff over your hands. Eitherway, it's probably a moot point, because putting a dowel in the bottom and then pouring molten lead (fishing weights) into holes drilled in said dowel would probably be the eaisest and most accurate way to counter-weight.
Also, fyi: the eaisest way to counterweight is to put around 5/8th to 7/8th the amount of water you would put fuel on the wick and balance it for that. you ALWAYS want to weight a sword for it being wet, and not being dry (unlike what I did with my first set). water weighs something like 8lb/gal, kero is around 6.5/gal, white gas is slightly less than that.
And why it gets the tube hot is pretty obvious when you realize that there is fire going through the middle of it.
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